Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

TheKman
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Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:04 pm

G'day gang,

I've done a bit of searching and not really found a great deal of useful information, please assist!?

After maybe 6-8 cycles some &%^@ with a rattle gun at the tyre dealer has managed to mangle two of my wheel studs, making the nuts almost impossible to remove. Managed it after an hour with hand tools, but suffice to say I really don't want to do it again! The obvious problem is the very small number of turns of the factory nuts onto the threads. Having replaced two rear studs today, what should I be replacing them all with to prevent future issues?

So, I'm looking at some ARP 65mm wheel studs and suitable nuts (most people go for the 3" studs, these are 2.5" or so), my question is two fold:

1) Can anyone tell me if I'll be able to install a 65mm stud without disassembling the rear hub, and
2) Can anyone recommend a basic chrome/black closed-end 19mm nut to suite?

2012 WRX hatch. I'm not planning to track it, put phat wheels on it or install spacers; this is purely a utilitarian installation.

Thanks folks.

SIMBAT
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby SIMBAT » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:45 am

I'd just get stock replacement items, give the bill to the tyre shop and tell the high school dropout tyre fitters to start the nuts by hand with 3 twists of the hand next time.

Theres nothing wrong with the factory hardware its the lazy tyre fitters trying to imitate a nascar pit crew.

TheKman
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:14 pm

I agree about the laziness, but the real flaw is with the studs IMO. The design should account for idiots.

Trying to make something fool proof is futile, because we constantly underestimate the ingenuity of fools. However, we do have to try!

Funnily enough, the guy doing the work looked to be in his fifties. I thought he'd know better.
Last edited by TheKman on Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pipjones
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby pipjones » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:29 pm

Nothing wrong with factory studs. Dickhead tyre fitter. If they did that to my car i wouldnt be happy[GRIMACING FACE]


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TheKman
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:47 pm

It's easy to say there's nothing wrong with the studs when they're working well. But look at it this way; the car is five years old, it's had the tyres rotated a couple of times, and replaced once. Now, does it seem reasonable that abuse by one tyre fitter should result in two butchered studs?

I think, no.

So what's the cause... The root cause? Nine turns of thread at a pitch of 1.25mm with 100Nm of torque applied makes for a lot of force per area. Now if the threads don't match that well, and wheel nuts frequently don't, it's a recipe for trouble.

So, the easiest fix is to add greater area, which means either a more coarse thread, or more turns of contact. Did I miss anything?

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Yeldz
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby Yeldz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:50 pm

Snip:
TheKman wrote:Now, does it seem reasonable that abuse by one tyre fitter should result in two butchered studs?

That's the reality mate.
A thread is a delicate engineering marvel & as such deserves due respect.
Rattle guns kill threads quit smart...in the hands of someone that gives 0 fks even quicker.
It will always be someone else's fault at a tyre shop though [EYEROLL]
All41N14All

stockhorse
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby stockhorse » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:53 pm

It only takes once for a ham fisted clot to damage your wheel studs or nuts.
It takes only one knock of the wheel brace against the threads of a stud to start the process of the wear on the stud and the nut. The nut then gets put on another stud and starts to wear that stud, a good nut is put on the worn stud and starts the wear on that nut. The damage could have been done the first time the wheels got removed.

"Funnily enough, the guy doing the work looked to be in his fifties. I thought he'd know better" probably had nothing to do with him.

Anyone who allows the use of a rattle gun on wheel nuts often gets the results that sometimes comes with that.

"So what's the cause... The root cause? Nine turns of thread at a pitch of 1.25mm with 100Nm of torque applied makes for a lot of force per area. Now if the threads don't match that well, and wheel nuts frequently don't, it's a recipe for trouble.
So, the easiest fix is to add greater area, which means either a more coarse thread, or more turns of contact. Did I miss anything?"
I am sure Subaru would welcome any comment or suggestion you have about it but I am sure the engineers and R&D people may not agree with you.

TheKman
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:45 pm

Touche.

You're very right about the transfer of thread damage, which is exactly why I want to replace them all.

Now, this will sound conceited, but I'm also an Engineer. If I'd bothered to count the number of occasions I've accepted someone's better judgement, and subsequently realises that my own judgement is superior, quoting the number would make me look like the most arrogant person you've ever encountered.

In the spirit of debate, I'd be more than happy to submit to evidence. At this stage I've already used the evidence at hand, my experience, and my judgement to make a decision. Nobody's perfect, I'm simply trying to improve the reliability of my car.

pipjones
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby pipjones » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:10 pm

Wheel nuts are supposed to be done up with a tension wrench not a rattle gun.


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stockhorse
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby stockhorse » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:25 am

TheKman wrote:Touche.

You're very right about the transfer of thread damage, which is exactly why I want to replace them all.

In the spirit of debate, I'd be more than happy to submit to evidence. At this stage I've already used the evidence at hand, my experience, and my judgement to make a decision. Nobody's perfect, I'm simply trying to improve the reliability of my car.


I will throw up for you the Mazda experience when they used bolts instead of studs and nuts and only had 5 turns of thread and never had a problem. Even with only 5 turns of thread it was very easy to over torque the bolts which made them hard to remove but needed the use of thread lock to keep them from unwinding on the next cycle.

TheKman
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:33 pm

Interesting; I had the same experience with Alfasud's in the 70's and 80's. The wheel bolts were long but had bout 7-8mm of hub to thread into. Like a lot of Alfasud's from the era they spent more time on the hoist than the road and it was common to tap new larger threads and use different bolts.

Bolts are a slightly different animal though. It's certainly harder to cross thread them.

Honestly, that's really just reinforcing the notion that longer studs are a good mod. More friction area and lower force per area equals good. It's possible that the steel used in the factory studs and nuts isn't up to it and any old identical length replacement will do. However, I'll be damned before I replace them all twice, so longer studs are on the cards.

stockhorse
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby stockhorse » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 pm

" It's possible that the steel used in the factory studs and nuts isn't up to it " interestingly there has been discussion on other forums about the decline in strength and quality of Subaru wheel studs since the early 2000's.

TheKman
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:01 am

I've also read about people using the Nismo 50mm studs with success, which are only a few turns longer. Maybe this is the real root cause?

TheKman
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:00 pm

Update; The studs are on the way and I've ordered a set of MCA Real Nuts as well.

I found a youtube video depicting installation of the 3" studs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9DaHQqUZv0) on the rear.

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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby rickzta » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:58 am

Not all tyre fitters are dickheads :thumbs:

Been in the industry 17 years.

The secret is to grease the threads, I use a mix of wheel bearing grease and graphite grease, of all the subarus I've owned, and worked on, I've never damaged a stud putting the nuts back on.

The oe studs are fine if they are lubricated properly, so are the oe nuts on standard wheels.

If you fit arp studs, you need to spilt the hub, if the car has done a decent amount of kms, you might as well fit new wheel bearings while you are there.

I use genuine Ray's alloy nuts on the forester with standard studs, the wheels have been on and off more times than I can remember, and I've never damaged a thread, I always roll the nuts up gently with the gun, and finish off with a torque wrench at 110nm.

I use this method for every car I work on, and rarely see a damaged stud.

Cheers
2 Door Widebody in the build process...

TheKman
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Re: Wheel Stud and Nuts... I'm already sick of replacing them!

Postby TheKman » Wed May 24, 2017 2:40 pm

Sorry I missed your reply.

The ARP studs were surprisingly simple to install, didn't need to split the hubs, only needed to bend the dust guard a fraction on the fronts.

Regarding lubrication of the threads, this is a rabbit hole I don't want to dive down again. Suffice to say I clean the threads and nuts with WD40 and the residue which remains may help stave off corrosion. I've yet to meet a professional or manufacturer who recommends greasing wheel studs.

Lastly, having replaced them all, it's now very clear to me that the studs and nuts don't have enough engagement to prevent damage by a nutter with a rattler. As best I can measure there are only 4.5-5 turns of thread actually engaged in the nut and when you consider the torque a rattle gun can produce, it seems far from ideal. At least three more of the studs also show signed of early damage preventing the nuts from going on smoothly. I agree, if you treat it well it will treat you well, but clearly Subaru hasn't accounted for any level of abuse if they let go this quickly. And, I've since found a workshop near by with a team who understand what a torque wrench is for! :)

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