FHR devices

Pleiades
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FHR devices

Postby Pleiades » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:29 pm

Yep your accident is proof we must introduce them at our level.
And it demonstrates that it is not all about a head on crash that we need them for.
This is going to be a long thread.

http://www.fia.com/file/2693/download/9 ... n=3vCE3uGx

One of the interesting things is that the FIA testing says that a Hybrid one must pass the SFI test before they will assess it.
But of course that is with a six point.

But a normal hans does not have to pass.

The thing is i am not really sure how well the Hybrid S only on a lap sash belt protects in a twisting rollover.
It would be nice to see some real data

We know that the use of FHR is going to be required "very soon" at our level.
You can sort of expect it probably to start at the National Championship, then State ( Vic SuperSprint Championship) then Clubs.
Which is why I have been surveying people about FHR at the Championship.
The thing is we have a mixture of cars from very modern cars with multiple air bags, older road registered cars, logbooked cars, cars that are neither road registered nor logbooked.
Each of these have different abilities to install and needs for FHR.
Obviously an effective FHR that can be used in the older road going/ registered car would fit in nicely.
New multi airbag cars may not need them.
A logbooked car probably already has harness, seat and helmet.

The usual problem ones.. not logbooked or registered, the usual problem.






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dbz
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Re: FHR devices

Postby dbz » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:40 pm

I remember watching your crash video at Sandown Kyle, and as Pleiades mentioned its a stark reminder that accidents happen and we need to be as well equipped as possible. Also interesting point on Hybrids needing SFI certification while HANS don't, because they are all manufactured by Simpson and you would think the same testing requirements would apply throughout the whole FHR range.

Below are some pictures of my Hybrid S for those that want to see non-brochure / manufacturer website pictures.

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MY15 BRZ (Clubman Class) PBs: PI-1:49.7 Winton-1:36.1
MY15 BRZ (Street Class)
PBs: PI-1:54.7 Winton-1:39.9 Sandown-1:29.4 Broadford-1:08.5

h-are
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Re: FHR devices

Postby h-are » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:09 am

I wouldnt mind have a good look at that at Broadford.

Never seen one before.

Pleiades
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FHR devices

Postby Pleiades » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:52 am

I think that the FIA homologation for normal HANS device is based on its dimensions, strength and lack of stretch, they have been around for 25 years. Everyone knows they work. The hybrid ones are relatively new, so even though FIA say there is no perfect standard test using a crash test dummy, they want some way of covering arse.

I have been looking at Simpsons testing of the Hybrid S.
I will post it later from my laptop as Tapatalk stuffs up imbedding.


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neptune11
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Re: FHR devices

Postby neptune11 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:48 pm

h-are wrote:I wouldnt mind have a good look at that at Broadford.

Never seen one before.


:drunk: :thumbs: Looks like you'll be a busy man at Broadford Zhi...
We'll all be looking at you FHR system... :cheer:
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Pleiades
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Re: FHR devices

Postby Pleiades » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:41 pm

Ok

You need to first watch that video that was linked.

The SFI 38.1 test uses a 70g peak stop from 63kph (40mph)
(From 63 to 0 in 26millisecs and 220mm)
But they only used
A 23 g test from 29mph [say 48 kmh]

The excuse is given that the car and belts couldn't take the higher loads

Which is a little bit like fake news.

I don't think a road car on a race track will be so nice as to only crash gently and generate minimum forces so it will not break the belts. What happens, happens.
However, race cars do not have crumple zones which will stretch the deceleration time, so less G.
I wasn't aware that they are weaker belts in road cars, though strange things happen in USA.
You would hope that road belts do not break in a 68G crash
Personally hitting a wall at 95 and shortening your car by 500 mm should not break your belts.
But remember that is the average G , it peaks much higher.
So your crash might be at a much lower speed to reach that peak.
Eg note the SFI Test based on real track data a 63kph hit peaks at 68G.


So they are testing with only the lapsash at about 23/68 that is 1/3 of the actual deceleration, THAT HAS BEEN MEASURED AT A RACE TRACK.
If you are testing for track equipment you use track settings.

The interesting thing is that even at the lower g force without a FHR you can get neck damage.
The SFI Cutoff is at the point where neck damage can occur, and data on the original HANS development says in a 40 G crash the neck tension is dropped to 1/5 of the unrestrained.
Not just 1/2.
The other thing is that they did not test as well at angle of 30deg, which SFI does.
And i reckon without a five pt harness you would get angle affects.

Now of course there is no way to calculate what it would be at the more realist 70G stop.

So where do we go.
Yes they do seem to work, but it is impossible to tell how well under race conditions.
Simpson appears to be obscuring this.
Why they do not just use the normal G force pulse of the SFI Test I do not know.

Now they claim that it passes FMVSS 208 which tests if seat belts etc work.
You would hope so, they have their FHR attached to normal seat belts.

They reference the test with the sled as FMVSS 213 which is the test for Child Seats.
It is the crash pulse for checking for damaged crash test dummies sitting in a child seat.
It is a variant of the FMVSS 208 Pulse which also only peaks at around 25G.

However, it is all about stopping the helmet moving and the helmet cradles the head.
I am confused by their comment about eyes dipping, if you head moves inside helmet, its the helmet not the FHR.
To me it seems that with a full harness etc, you are held more rigid and FHR will not flex as much.
( in full harness the Hybrid FHR is also restrained by belts over shoulders and the belts attached to buckle)

So whilst they appear to have an effect when only attached to a lapsash there is no way to know how much less the protection is without a full harness.
You would expect the protection in a side impact or roll over to also be an amount less than a full setup.

So my view is the same as before.
Go the full hog, but if all you have is a lapsash, buy one of them.
Dont be a nong, if you have a dedicated track car, put in a harness, seat, cage, good helmet and FHR and get it log booked


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dbz
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Re: FHR devices

Postby dbz » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:23 pm

Pleiades wrote:
Go the full hog, but if all you have is a lapsash, buy one of them.
Dont be a nong, if you have a dedicated track car, put in a harness, seat, cage, good helmet and FHR and get it log booked



That's it, any protection is better than none with a 3 pt lapsash. The results would never be as good as with a full harness, FHR and fixed back seat and i don't think Simpson ever intended it to be. The Hybrid S is designed to be versatile, to be utilised by pretty much everyone who wants to do some form of motorsport, even passengers and instructors jumping into cars with only driver's side harness.

If people already have a harness, they should probably just get a HANS and fixed back race seat which might end up being more cost effective. But the Hybrid S could be less restrictive for some and its very lightweight.

One negative about the Hybrid is that you can feel it in the seat even though its padded. This could put some people off using it. I would only know for myself once i have used it in the car at high Gs.

And to Kyle and Shane happy to show it around as long as i get to wear it when i am out on track! :thumbs:
MY15 BRZ (Clubman Class) PBs: PI-1:49.7 Winton-1:36.1
MY15 BRZ (Street Class)
PBs: PI-1:54.7 Winton-1:39.9 Sandown-1:29.4 Broadford-1:08.5

Pleiades
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Re: FHR devices

Postby Pleiades » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:36 am

I should come up for a look as well, i want a good look at them in action.
Or come to the SAU/VSSC event at Sandown on 30th

They seem to be aimed at the American HPDE level,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Pe ... _Education

Which seems to be more like the Commercial Drive Day/ Come and Try Day here rather than our club level full on competition with dedicated cars.

If I was a professional instructor at them I would rush out and buy one.
The old saying " the more expensive your car the worse you drive" seems to be very true. You see some really sh1t ability on show at those days, and at OLT days ( race licence test days)



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Re: FHR devices

Postby blackrex » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:45 pm

Hi h-are,

I wouldn't mind seeing the footage, a PM to the link would be fine if you don't want it public.
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Pleiades
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Re: FHR devices

Postby Pleiades » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:07 pm

Aha
You need to make sure you have the right one from Simpsons.

Actually
They confused me

According to Simpsons USA the compatible one is the hybrid s

http://simpsonraceproducts.com/hybrid/h ... ompatible/
Which is $US 1160
Australia Simpsons. $1599. Revolution $1749
Which has FIA number FHR.065.16-B SIMPSON Hybrid S 18.10.16

And the Sport is the cheap one.
http://simpsonraceproducts.com/hybrid/hybrid-sport/
Which USA does not say its lapsash compatible.
$US599
Simpsons Australia $899 Revolution $849
FIA FHR.055.14-B SIMPSON Hybrid Sport

Very different shapes they have, i can see why dbz says they dig into back whilst in seat.

Pleiades
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Re: FHR devices

Postby Pleiades » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:00 pm

Image


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dbz
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Re: FHR devices

Postby dbz » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:10 pm

That is awesome hahaha :D
MY15 BRZ (Clubman Class) PBs: PI-1:49.7 Winton-1:36.1
MY15 BRZ (Street Class)
PBs: PI-1:54.7 Winton-1:39.9 Sandown-1:29.4 Broadford-1:08.5

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